Talk:Miles O'Brien
FA status FA nomination (June - 2004, Success) Self-nomination. You didn't think I'd do all that work and not nominate it, did you? ;) Highly detailed description of the character, with good layout and division of information. Maybe one or two more pretty pictures to go in, but is essentially complete. -- Michael Warren 00:51, 1 Jun 2004 (CEST) : Seconded. -- Dan Carlson 16:35, 1 Jun 2004 (CEST) :: Seconded again. Thirded, if you will. --Fox Mulder 17:52, 2 Jun 2004 (CEST) :::Opposed. Maybe it can be nominated later, but first I would try and clean up some of the red inkt on this page. Also, I'm not seeing any source whatsoever. And finally, I can't find any note on why he was never promoted beyond the rank of Chief Petty Officer, which is very odd indeed, since as the Chief Engineer of DS9, he should at least have been Lieutenant, if not Commander. If you can correct this first, it will make a fine featured article. -- Redge 15:39, 5 Jun 2004 (CEST) O'Brien is an enlisted officer. He cannot have an officer's rank (despite the rank pip mistakes) because of this. He was promoted from Chief to Master Chief in transferring to DS9, a fact which is mentioned in the article. And what do you mean by source? I wrote this myself. If you're referring to references, I can add some in, but I don't particularly like them in the article, because they clutter up the writing, IMO. The fact that other articles linked off this page have not been created does not mean the article is bad, it means that it builds the web well, and allows further expansion of the wiki by offering new articles to create. Judge the content, not the links. -- Michael Warren 18:31, 5 Jun 2004 (CEST) ::::Vote is yes. If you make an article with lots of red links a featured article, chances are they are going to be all turned blue faster than if you didn't. Also, there's no place for speculation about what rank O'Brien should be unless you mean there should be additional background info. O'Brien was explicitly stated to be a Chief Petty Officer from TNG:"Family" on and they have maintained that in dialogue whenever mentioned afterwards, even though his insignia remained inconsistent. Lack of speculation is not a detractor from this article --Captainmike 21:15, 5 Jun 2004 (CEST) :::Very well, but at the very least you really should incorporate references. They may not be very good for style, layout and overall readability of the article (pardon my spelling), but they really are necessary and also usefull to find episodes that are relevant tot the character. Supose someone wants to know where you base those conclusions on, or someone wants to find out more about O'Brien and is looking for relevant episodes? -- Redge 12:50, 7 Jun 2004 (CEST) ::::Maybe it does need references, but I'll go ahead and second it anyway. --Steve 17:47, 7 Jun 2004 (CEST) :::::I've moved this back to the unopposed category, based on Redge's apparent retraction of his objection in his last comment. Apologies in advance if I'm getting the wrong impression! -- Dan Carlson 20:29, 9 Jun 2004 (CEST) FA removal (25 July - 02 Aug 2006, Success) The most striking thing is that there is a distinct lack of any information pertaining to Julian, especially in the friends section; (Oh my mistake, there is that one itty-bitty paragraph) that seems odd to me. Also, the page seems overall short; compared to other main character articles of late, Miles is one of the longest running ongoing Characters in trek- I think there's more info on him. Also, the citations seem to be missing in many places. On another note, his "voting" isn't on his talk page, so is it possible someone just added it and we didn't notice? Eh, maybe not, but I'll keep looking. - AJ Halliwell 18:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC) * remove. --Bp 05:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC) * remove. --From Andoria with Love 06:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC) * remove. --Ortzinator 06:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC) Job description i've made some slight alterations in the wording of O'Brien's job description, since it really is pedantic to state he underwent complete job transfers every time he was seen manning a different post. More likely, he was assigned duty where he was needed. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 02:26, 30 Jul 2004 (CEST) :Perhaps he was a Jack of All Trades. -- Redge 12:58, 30 Jul 2004 (CEST) Rank topic 1 Does anyone have any theories why O'Brien was promoted from Ensign to Lieutenant, and then seemingly becoming uncommissioned before he was transferred to DS9 as a CPO? This has been bugging me for some time now, and no-one has given me a plausible theory yet! zsingaya 08:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) :Don't know about starfleet, but in the US Navy there is a program that senior non-commissioned officers can elect to go through when selected that elevates them to the rank of lieutenant for 2 years, then they get the choice to head off to OCS (Officer Candidate School) and retain the commission, or revert back to a non-com if they prefer that. Wow, I did not know about that! That would partly explain O'Brien's rank change, apart from the fact that he started on the Enterprise as an Ensign on the bridge, and that he was a commissioned officer for all the time he was on the Enterprise, right up until he was transferred to Deep Space 9. zsingaya 21:31, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC) In , O'Brien wore a black pip, but by his rank had changed to his more unusual rank pin. zsingaya 15:03, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::More likely? arbitrary creator decision. Not sure what the reason would be, or why they would decide that O'Brien would be better on DS9 as a non-com than a lieutenant (to my knowledge, his being an NCO has never been used as a basis for any plot point in either series. Perhaps the creators simply wanted to add another level of depth to the rank system. :::Actually, O'Brien was a Chief Petty Officer by , where Sergey Rozhenko noted how nice it was to see another Petty Officer, and remarked to O'Brien how odd it was for an Enlisted to have an Officer son. -- 18:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC) :My guess would be that someone was to stupid to know the difference between 'chief': as in chief engineer, or chief of operations (a flag rank, actually) and 'chief' as in Chief petty officer. That stupid someone then wanted a joke about noncoms and work (don't call me sir, I work for a living...) and we've been stuck with an inconsistent rank ever since. ::::You just responded to a two year old dead conversation. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC) First Name For a good portion of TNG, O'Brien was never given a first name. Does anyone know in which episode he is given "Miles"? And if so, is it relevant for this article? Vash The Stampede 22:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC) :Not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure he was named in full in Data's Day, for his wedding. :To correct my own previous statement, it appears that "Family" was the episode that reveals his full name. Miles and Julian I know this was one of my favorite parts of all of my ST watching: the relationship between Julian and Miles growing and flourishing. I think a bit more in this article should be added to encompass and elaborate on the process, it was perhaps the best and most believable of the friendships that I have seen in ST. Perhaps a subsection of friendships dedicated to this topic? (Note: sorry for initial talk, trying to get a grasp on this whole thing!) --XxDkCobraxX 19:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC) Tactical Officer Something that bugs me is the use of the title "Tactical Officer" in reference to an enlisted crewman. To be a tactical officer, doesn't one need to be... an officer? Unless it's directly quoted in the canon (in which case I am an utter fool) perhaps it should be changed to something a tad bit more realistic, such as "Security Director", "Tactical Director", "Captain of Security" or such. --The Rev 17:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC) :To my knowledge he was called that, if you notice he was also some sort of assistant chief engineer (begin of Season 4) and relief tactical officer (during redemption). All those were before it was decided to go for the "Chief Petty Officer" variant rather the "Chief Warrant Officer" explanation used in Encyclopedia before. Even though he was addressed as Lieutenant and also dressed like one in seasons 2 and 3 -- Kobi 18:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC) ::Actually, In TNG: The Wounded, Captain Maxwell does refer to O'brian as his "Tactical officer" – 7th Tactical 05:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC) ::: While serving aboard the , likely under different circumstances. --Alan 19:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Last TNG episode Does anybody know what O'Brien's last episode of TNG was prior to the beginning of DS9? --From Andoria with Love 20:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC) Nevermind, I think I found it: it was . Please let me know if I'm wrong, though. --From Andoria with Love 20:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC) : It is . The episode also saw Rosalind Chao's last appearance on TNG and the first and last appearance as Hana Hatae as Molly O'Brien. Its kind of that episodes fault for the Molly O'Brien age confusion. Why would a four year old kid play a one year old toddler? -- Tough Little Ship 20:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC) Forum:Why does Miles O'Brien have a different style rank insignia in DS9? (aka Rank topic 2) Can anyone explain why Miles O'Brien has a different style of rank insignia in DS9 instead of the usual starfleet pips? I'm almost certain that when serving as the transporter officer aboard the Enterprise-D he had the tradtional pips to denote his ranking, however in DS9 his ranking insignia seems to be unlike anyone else's. Why is this? :I'm sure this is explained elsewhere, but his DS9 insignia reperesent that he is an enlisted man. Why they did not have that in TNG? Oh well, ignore that they didn't. --OuroborosCobra talk 21:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC) ::When Colm Meanly first appeared on TNG he was meant to be a one-time side character, without a name or substance. He was given random uniforms and ranks, which in the first few seasons of TNG ranged from ensign to lt. sr grade, in both yellow and red uniforms. It was only later, as his character became more developed that it was established he would be an enlisted officer. His unique DS9 pip is most likely to denote that although he is enlisted, he is a senior officer. -- Jaz talk 04:59, 24 August 2006 (UTC) Birth and Enlistment dates... Where does O'Brien's birthdate of 2328 come from? I gather that his enlistment date of 2346 is based on him being only recently assigned to the Rutledge in 2347. Did we go back 18 years from that and come up with 2328, or is that date established somewhere? About the 2347 date, though... In Rules of Engagement (which takes place in 2372), Ch'Pok asks O'Brien, "How long have you been in Starfleet?" O'Brien responds "Twenty-two years." 2372 - 22 years = 2350, so the 2347 date can't be accurate, which makes all of O'Brien's pre-TNG dates off. Thoughts on this? --TimPendragon 05:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC) I've just been told over on http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6633058&an=&page=0&vc=1 this thread at TrekBBS that the script for "Whispers" lists O'Brien's birthdate as 2331, which tracks better with the 2350 date from "RoE" (based on joining Starfleet at 18, per "Shadowplay"). I cannot find a single reference that supports 2328, except as extrapolated from O'Brien's comments in "Realm of Fear" and "Paradise," which are not hard-and-fast dates. --TimPendragon 22:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC) :I just checked the script (found here, and I can find no such reference. The 2328 reference is also not from any episode; it actually comes from conjecture by the authors of the Star Trek Encyclopedia based on the assumption that he was 18 around the time of the Setlik III massacre. So, neither dates have any strong hold in canon, as far as I can tell. --From Andoria with Love 02:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC) ::So why are the dates still in the article? The Star Trek Encyclopedia isn't a valid canon reference right? Podex 13:41, February 16, 2011 (UTC) O'Brien Must Suffer The existence of a tradition of yearly "O'Brien must suffer" episodes explains a lot for me. I've often wondered "Why are there so many episodes where bad stuff happens to O'Brien? He should have gone totally nuts after all the bad stuff that happened to him." Is there any definitive list of which episodes are "O'Brien must suffer" episodes? I have guesses, but it would be cool to see one. In order by episode:- , , , , , , . There may be more, but these stick out glaringly. - Jacques -- 17:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC) Knowledge of transporters vs. shields In 2367, Miles was forced to confront his former commanding officer, when Captain Maxwell went rogue, launching attacks on Cardassian outposts and ships inspite of a peace treaty between the Federation and Cardassia. It was O'Brien's knowledge of transporter systems that allowed him to beam aboard Maxwell's ship, the Phoenix, while her shields were up, giving him a chance to reason with Maxwell, ultimately preventing further bloodshed. ( ) Wasn't it more O'Brien's knowledge of the cyclic nature of the Phoenix shields than knowledge of the transporter systems? It's been a while, since I've seen the episode though.--lifeisharsh20 Smiley I had added a mention of Smiley to the "Alternate realities" section, and it got reverted, with the justification apparantly being that Smiley's already mentioned at the top of the article. That may be, but the character still is an alternate reality version of O'Brien, and as far as I'm aware, there's no rule against a portion of the main article elaborating on something mentioned at the top. I don't want to start a ping-pong game, so I'll leave it for now, I just wanted to state my case here and see if there's some sort of consensus, but it seems to me that if there's an alternate realities section at all, there's no good reason to omit Smiley. - Ugliness Man 15:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC) :It is mentioned at the top, with a link to his article, and more information. Part of the point of wikis is to not have to re-explain terms and such on a dozen pages. People simply follow the link, and see the one page on it. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC) :I think a very, very brief mention of Smiley, might be okay in the alternate realities section, but as he has his own page, it's not necessary. That section is for covering alternate O'Briens who otherwise would not be covered (alternate, non-mirror versions do not generally get their own page, since Worf messed that up). I understand what you're saying though (imo, the mirror universe is more parallel than alternate, but that's another discussion).--Tim Thomason 20:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Trill? A recent addition was made: :"O'Brien was literate in the Trill language." Granted, it has been a long time since I saw this episode, but what is the basis for this claim? Is it that he talked to Trill? --OuroborosCobra talk 15:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC) :He reads the text on a monitor in the Tigan family household which is written in the Trill language. --Jörg 15:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Coffee An earlier reference to his preference of coffee is . -- TNG Pilot Am I completely crazy, or did they call him by a completely different last name starting with O'somethingotherthanBrien in the pilot? It's been a while since I've seen "Encounter at Farpoint". -- 00:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC) :Yes, you are completely crazy.. :In the TNG pilot they only referred to him by the name of the position he occupied in that scene: "Conn" was specified in the TNG technical manual as being short for "flight controller", it was a term used sporadically during the TNG series. :O'Brien wasn't named until an episode in TNG Season 2. -- Captain MKB 00:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC) ::He's named as "Bridge Conn Officer" or something like that in the credits. – – Tranchera 11:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC) ::: Unless you are referring to Ortiz. --Alan 00:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC) Involvement in TNG I always found it odd that Miles was specifically called the Chief in all the TNG episodes, when he was just like any other recurring extra on the series at the time. It's a bit funny, seeing as though he really only had an episode about him (two in a row, in fact) in Season 4. Why would they wait so long to give him the limelight if they had already decided to make him a "special extra", and indeed why would they make him a character at all? – – Tranchera 12:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC) :Colm Meaney, who played O'Brien, was never an "extra" on TNG. An extra is an actor who has a non-speaking role, often in the background and generally for a few seconds, and are usually uncredited. Meaney began as a co-star (co-stars generally play smaller characters than guest stars and play a less significant role in the story, but they are not extras) and worked his way up to recurring performer and, ultimately, a regular on DS9. They really didn't wait too long to make him a recurring player; he was such by TNG Season 2, although he was still only a co-star. As his popularity and the production staff's affection for the character/actor grew, he was given more screentime and more storylines. --From Andoria with Love 19:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC) Rank Thumbnail Pictures Any idea what happened to the rank pictures? They are now showing up as thes ehuge pics taking up a third of the page (at least on my browser). Before they were of a managable size. Thoughts? -FleetCaptain 10:14, 15 February 2008 (EST) :I agree that the images look silly as they are now. I'd suggest using close-ups of the insignia in situ but without the ridiculous enlargement. We don't yet have pixelated image enhancement. – Pesky 13:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC) ::Somebody converted the "table" code to "gallery" code -- the "gallery" feature automatically resizes the images, thus the enlargement. We should change it back to the table that would have been showing rank images before. -- Captain MKB 16:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC) :::While changing to table might fix it, looking at the history shows nothing has changed about the code used to display the images since it was first added.– Cleanse talk 01:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC) :::: I just hemmed them into the chronology, gives visual reference alongside text reference. It looks like crap on IE (which is all I have access to at the moment), but I suspect it looks better on Mozilla. --Alan 15:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC) :::::I've made it into a table, with numerical references in the text. I think this is neater, and deals more effectively with the differing sizes of the images. It's a kludge, but a better kludge. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 16:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC) Problematic Rank History Could anyone please explain to me why the corrections I made were undone? To sum them up: I removed the "Data's Day" reference because O'Brien's dress uniform clearly showed 2 pips. "Realm of Fear" was the first episode which showed him with the hollow pip. I added a reference to "Shadow Play" in which O'Brien refered to himself as Senior Chief Specialist. I corrected the "Hippocratic Oath" reference. The Jem'Hadar refered to O'Brien as "Chief Petty Officer". -- 08:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC) :The Data Day's reference shouldn't have been simply cut out, you should have modified it; however, if memory serves at the very end of the episode he had a single hollow pip on his dress uniform (whereas his regular uniform had two pips). Also, I think the solider in Hip Oath actually says "Senior Chief Petty Officer" or at least uses the word "Senior." In addition, when anon ips cut out parts of text, it is normally assumed that was done for not-so-legit reasons. Also, I think there were some bad links and grammer problems created from your edits and at the time it was assumed that whatever you did messed up the sizes of the pictures. That problem was not attributed to you after all (see above) so you got the blame for that and apologies are in order. However, I would recommend you establish an account and go from there. Like I said, its just a fact on this site that when ip addresses start making large edits which involve cutting text and breaking links, its assumed that they are not good edits. Sad but true. -FC 18:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC) Nope, in "Data's Day" it was two solid pips. You might be thinking of "Rules of Engagement" where he wore the hollow pip on his dress uniform instead of the chevron-patch. Also, I checked "Hippocratic Oath" and it's definately just "Chief Petty Officer". -- 18:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC) :Yes, indeed. Data's Day should be changed. Not sure about Hip Oath, but it can be modified if you checked the exact dialouge. -FC 18:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC) if i could interject... my father was in the us army for over 36 years as a nco... he left as a master sgt. he was headed up quite a few projects where he was not the senior rank and was called sir by officers due to his position and experience. think of it as a respect thing. 00:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC) ::I don't have the Hipp Oath episode, but the script available online http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/literature329/475.txt and a .sub transcript for the ep http://titulky.trekdnes.cz/titulky/ds9-ep076.sub both say its CPO not SCPO and if 62.178.60.233 checked the actual ep, I think its pretty solid :) --Pseudohuman 01:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC) ::Finally got around to check the reference myself and it was CPO. Modified the article to reflect this. I wonder if we should go with the way of Chakotay here, as there are two statements of O'Briens rank being CPO, and no direct references anywhere of a SCPO rank even used in Starfleet. --Pseudohuman 02:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC) :::For the record, you flat out don't call Chiefs "sir" in the US Navy unless you want your ass kicked. ::::You also don't call female officers "sir" unless you want your nuts deservedly kicked in, but they do that in Star Trek. --OuroborosCobra talk 04:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC) :::::If I may... The "Two Solid Rank Pips" O'Brien wears in TNG season four are not the same pips everyone else uses. They are more teardrop shaped than circles, indicating they are something different. As the producers didn't have the cool rank pin used in DS9 yet, that was their way of indicating his rank. I hope this helps clear up some things. :Actually, they are exactly the same since OB's uniform was out of the same wardrobe stock as the rest of the TNG cast. He was actually a Lieutenant at one point, at least in the dialouge, before his rank as an NCO firmed up. It would also be highly unlikely that the underbudgeted production crew of the early 1990s (now almost twenty years ago...my God) would have spent the time and money to design a special insignia like that. While your theory is interesting, I don't think its verifiable which is what would be needed to add such information to the article. -FC 16:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC) ::I suppose it is possible that I want to see a difference so bad, that I started seeing one. Im a Marine, so Rank is something I pay attention to. Sorry for the seemingly false information folks. PNA Incomplete I put a PNA incomplete in the "Friends" section, as there's a heck of a lot more that can be said. At least the people listed should have a small section, and likely a few others.– Cleanse 02:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC) :I did my best to start correcting this problem. I removed the blank listing for Jake Sisko (it just had his name in there, and no info). And I added a few paragraphs describing O'Brien's relationship with Ben Sisko, and Kira Nerys. Of course my info is limited to my familiarity with early-era DS9, as I've not managed to see as many of the later episodes, in the Dominon War era as I'd like to. So... anyone, please feel free to expand on what I put in.. it's just a starter to clean up the incomplete look of this part of Miles' bio. I'm sure there is someone here who knows enough about Miles' friendships with, Ben, Kira, etc., during the later years of the show to fill this in and really make it look good ! --Jadza 17:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC) Great work! As I indicated in my first post though, the empty headings were there as hints that we needed sections on those people - there was a clear relationship with Jake in the early seasons, and that should be noted on the page someday. :-)– Cleanse 09:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC) Relationship problems with Keiko Would it be possible for this article to go into greater detail addressing the relationship Miles has with Keiko? His duty record is very well detailed, but this article doesn't really describe much about the relationship they share. I think it's pretty critical at some points how strong their love is, where at other points in the series it falters. The first being 'Rascals' where he gives Keiko this huge cold shoulder, and later when he starts getting too close with the Major. It seems like this relationship has had some strong ups and down. Tyciol 13:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC) :Feel free, that's what it's there for.--31dot 13:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC) ::Indeed. :-) All of the relationships (except Worf, which is a blow by blow account) could use some expansion. Other references that could assist (off the top of my head) - a few of the episodes I cited under Julian Bashir (ie. whether he loves his wife or his friend more), and the entire subplot of . The Kira thing is already noted in the article under "Family" but feel free to expand that bit.– Cleanse 13:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Trivia "O'Brien is one of two characters to appear in two series premieres ( and ), the other being Jean-Luc Picard." Er, is this just counting those two pilots? Because there's also Quark and Morn, who were in 2 as well- and . And..."O'Brien is the only character to appear in two series finales". Riker and Troi were in two as well: and Or did I misinterpret this trivia and it only means those episodes?--Golden Monkey 19:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC) :This is why I need to stop updating half asleep, didn't even think of VOY or ENT, though I think the original note is a bit older than that. - Archduk3:talk 20:05, 15 August 2009 (UTC) Badda-Bing Gangsters Can anyone verify that the gangsters are from Chicago that take over Vic's club. I thought I remember Vic saying that they were from Jersey; which would make them New York Gangsters. – PFreeman008@aol.com 17:07, December 8, 2009 (UTC) From: Forum:Miles O'Brien's Rank I understand the position that some believe Miles O'Brien's rank to be that of a Senior Chief Petty Officer. In my opinion, that is inaccurate. Miles O'Brien is referred to as "Chief", "Lieutenant" and "Crewman". I would like to address my thoughts on those titles. In the Navy (which Starfleet clearly is) a Senior Chief Petty Officer would not be addressed as "Chief" but "SENIOR Chief". THOUGH a Senior Chief COULD be called "Chief" doing so would be a demeaning act and not done so politely. The same would be said in an instance of calling a Lieutenant Commander "Lieutenant" or calling a Lieutenant Colonel "Lieutenant". It just isn't done unless you are trying to be demeaning. I TRULY believe that Miles O'Brien was an enlisted Crewman and not an officer commissioned directly from "collegiate programs" such as Starfleet Academy, ROTC, and similar pre-commissioning officer candidate programs, however I DO believe that he was more than likely a Officer" or a "Limited Duty Officer". Chief Warrant Officers (CWO) are commonly referred to simply as "Chief", or by the department they are in charge of (Weps for the CWO in charge of weapons division Conn for flight control). A Warrant Officer rank is above the senior-most enlisted ranks, as well as officer cadets and candidates, but below the officer grade of O-1 (Ensign). Warrant officers are highly skilled, single-track specialty officers which can and do command detachments, units, activities, vessels, aircraft, and armored vehicles as well as lead, coach, train, and counsel subordinates. However, the Warrant Officer's primary task as a leader is to serve as a technical expert, providing valuable skills, guidance, and expertise to commanders and organizations in their particular field. Warrant Officers have traditionally been the technical experts whose skills and knowledge are an essential part of the proper operation of the ship. Chief Warrant Officers are technical officer specialists who perform duties that require expertise and commissioned officer authority to direct technical operations in a given occupational area. They perform duties that are technically oriented, that is, requiring skills directly related to previous enlisted service and specialized training. Chief warrant officers must have been a senior non-commissioned officer (E-7 through E-9) to gain their commission. In another instance, Miles O'Brien was referred to as "Lieutenant". I have a couple of thoughts on that. In the 20th and 21st century's, the Naval Rank of CWO-3 is represented by a silver bar marked with two blue squares. IF this was a rank represented during the century that Miles' O'Brien was in service, or during the time that anyone encountering him might have served, it is possible that someone might have mistakenly identified his rank as Lieutenant, as it is represented by two black circles. Another possibility for the reference of Miles O'Brien being called Lieutenant could be that he was a "Limited Duty Officer". A Limited Duty Officer (LDO) is an officer who was selected for commissioning based on his/her skill and expertise, and is not required to have a bachelor's degree. They are employed in situations where it is desirable to have an officer with strong, specific technical knowledge and seasoned leadership. An LDO is a permanent commissioned officer in a permanent grade above chief warrant officer, W-5, and designated for limited duty. LDOs perform similar tasks as those of the CWO, but the formal definition differences are subtle and focus on the degree of authority and level of responsibility, as well as the breadth of required expertise. Historically an LDO could only advance as far as Lieutenant. Later an LDO could conceivably be promoted to Rear Admiral (lower half). The LDO/CWO motto is "sursum ab ordine" which means "up from the ranks" to underline a distinction between them and "Direct Commission Officers" It is thus possible (though a VERY large stretch) that Miles O'Brien may have been promoted to the position of "LDO" Lieutenant (where he could still be called "Chief" based on his Divisional Assignment as Chief. Another reason I believe that Miles O'Brien was an officer (CWO/LDO) was his social interaction with officers on the ship. Fraternization is a violation generally categorized under "Officer and a Gentleman". Basically a Commissioned or Warrant Officer may not fraternize on terms of military equality with one or more enlisted member(s) in a certain manner. Thinking back on the interactions of Miles O'Brien officers at his duty stations, I would have to say that they interacted with him on a equal basis, and not that of an enlisted person. SO, my thought is that Miles O'Brien was either a Chief Warrant Officer (CWO3) or a Limited Duty Officer (LDO) holding the rank of Lieutenant. In either of those instances, it would have been proper to call him "Chief" because of his division assignment. :The issue of his rank is discussed significantly at both the Miles O'Brien page and its talk page. Maybe its because there is so much here, but it doesn't seem like much of this evidence is derived from canon, only real-world experience. No matter how correct that is, we have to go with what was done in canon.--31dot 10:52, December 30, 2009 (UTC) Interesting response, since "we have to go with what was done in canon", Lieutenant is the rank that Miles O'Brien was ever FORMALLY addressed as by any Starfleet Officer( he appears wearing the insignia and is directly addressed by Commander Riker as "Lieutenant"). Canon then states that he is a Lieutenant.Siriapp 00:47, December 31, 2009 (UTC) ::Except all those times he wasn't, like Deep Space Nine... --OuroborosCobra talk 01:06, December 31, 2009 (UTC) In , Miles O' Brien is referred to and addressed directly as "MISTER" O'Brien by Captain Jean Luc Picard. THIS is the long form of "Sir", as in "Yes Sir" and is ONLY used when addressing OFFICERS. The Captain of the ship would DEFFINITELY know the rank of his personnel on board. Canon then states that he is an officer. NOW since the DS9 possibilities happened after the passing of Gene Roddenberry sounds to me like the DS9 writers moved away from Canon. Siriapp 08:41, January 1, 2010 (UTC) :Possibly, but the fact that DS9 used it that way means that it is canon, whether it was before or not.--31dot 08:48, January 1, 2010 (UTC) Actually, Deep Space Nine is not Canon but apocryphal. During the end of Gene Roddenberry's life, he turned most of the management of Star Trek over to Paramount Pictures, owners of the various Star Trek series. Roddenberry was respected enough that requests to have Star Trek: The Animated Series be stripped of its official recognition as canon was made so. (In 2007, Star Trek's official site included the animated series in its library section. ) According to the reference book The Star Trek Chronology, Roddenberry also considered elements of the fifth and sixth Trek films to be apocryphal, although there was no indication that he wanted them removed from Trek canon. With Paramount Pictures, holding the rights to Star Trek, Anything created after the passing of the original artist cannot be Canon but Apocrypha. All Paramount Pictures "Star Trek" media created after the passing of Gene Roddenberry can only be "Based on" the original artist's creation. These included but not directly limited to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine; ''Star Trek: Voyager; and Star Trek: Enterprise adn would then so be labeled as Apocryphal. Siriapp 09:17, January 1, 2010 (UTC) In the Star Trek Encyclopedia, the references of Michael O'Brien, Keiko O'Brien and Molly O'Brien all refer to Miles O'Brien as Starfleet officer. Siriapp 09:27, January 1, 2010 (UTC) ::Ugh. Even though it's been linked several times, here's the core of MA:CANON: "Generally, everything seen or heard in any Star Trek episode or movie can be used as a resource for an article." So the short of it is latter episodes of TNG, and all of DS9, VOY, ENT, and TAS are canon under this sites policy, which is the final say here. Normally, I would suggest taking up the issue on the policy's talk page; but I know in this case a motion to remove the bulk of Star Trek from canon would be answered with a flat no, since we are striving for the "widest possible range of fans", and the simple fact is, most of Star Trek has been made without Gene Roddenberry. I think that should settle the issue, as far as what is canon on Memory Alpha, and thus the fact (with noted discrepancies) that in canon O'Brien is a non-com. - Archduk3:talk 13:52, January 1, 2010 (UTC) :To Siriapp:You're entitled to that interpretation of canon, and if you wish you could certainly start a wiki where the only canon content was that which only GR considered canon or made while he was alive. Here, however, we use the idea that anything seen/heard in any official Star Trek production is canon. This is slightly broader than what even Paramount/CBS(the current owners of Star Trek) considers canon(they generally do not include TAS). I'll second what Archduk said.--31dot 19:20, January 1, 2010 (UTC) Rank in All Good Things Okay, I keep changing this and it keeps getting changed back so I'll make the note here. The article claims that O'Brien wears an ensign's pip in "All Good Things". He doesn't. He wears the hollow "warrant officer" pip that he was wearing on DS9 at the time. They even acknowledge the discrepancy in the Next Generation Companion. – Skteosk 00:59, March 25, 2010 (UTC) :It looks pretty solid in these shots - http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s7/7x25/allgoodthings0333.jpg; http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s7/7x25/allgoodthings0392.jpg and http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s7/7x25/allgoodthings0398.jpg.– Cleanse ( talk | ) 01:07, March 25, 2010 (UTC) ::It is solid, the episode was just on again, and I watched it with PARTICULAR interest. Siriapp 12:12, March 25, 2010 (UTC) :I put a note that the Companion is wrong in this case.– Cleanse ( talk | ) 00:18, March 26, 2010 (UTC) Apologies, I thought I'd seen it and it was hollow but I've checked the tape and yes, it's solid. I think I was getting confused because Picard addresses him as "Chief", which doesn't make much sense if he's ensign and helmsman. – Skteosk 09:19, March 26, 2010 (UTC) :No worries, this page has extensive discussions about theories as to why O'Brien was referred to as what and when (see "From: Forum:Miles O'Brien's Rank" as one :) ) and thank you for your thoughts and contributions. Siriapp 23:25, March 27, 2010 (UTC) 2.2 Assignment aboard the Enterprise-D? Does anyone think that the events of should be added to 2.2 Assignment aboard the Enterprise-D?-- 06:14, June 16, 2010 (UTC) Subjective bg note :O'Brien is one of two enlisted characters in Star Trek to have received any significant character development, the other being Yeoman Janice Rand. '' This statement, to me, seems rather subjective. Did someone associated with ''Star Trek state this? — Morder (talk) 00:35, October 1, 2010 (UTC) Miles' sisters Where's it mentioned that O'Brien had three sisters? His brothers are referenced in Invasive Procedures, but neither of the sources for the existence of these siblings is cited in O'Brien's article. And people have got onto me about this ... ;)--Archer4real 16:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC) So … does anyone know where we learn that O’Brien had three sisters? If it comes to that, does anyone know if a Parada is seen in Looking For Par’Mach In All The Wrongs Places, or was the article’s author thinking of the following show? And how about my suggestion to redirect Lilliputian to Gulliver’s Travels? What’s the point of having talk pages if no one responds, if only to say “I don’t know” or “I disagree”?--Archer4real 11:29, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :Well, I didn't see anything on Talk:Miles O'Brien about his sisters, including a this question, but would be a good place to start, since that seems to be the cite for that statement, or should I assume that "Whispers" has already been checked and found to be lacking? Oh, before I forget, I don't know and disagree. - 12:15, February 10, 2011 (UTC) I posed the question about O'Brien's sisters the Reference Desk due to the uselessness of talk pages. These siblings are certainly mentioned in the main article – look for yourself if you don't believe me – but no source is cited, neither is Invasive Procedures cited for Miles' brothers. People have got on my back about this more than once. So where does the reference to them come from?--Archer4real 17:43, February 10, 2011 (UTC) ::The online transcript for does not contain either "brother" or "sister", so I guess this information is not from that episode (the remainder of the paragraph, about his mother and stepmother is, though). I've added an to that sentence. I have no idea what the rest of the original request is about, and if it has anything to do with O'Brien or his sisters... I suggest actually bringing that up on appropriate talk pages. -- Cid Highwind 19:28, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :::Sounds to me like it came from the episode in which O'Brien states he thought Hector Ilario had 2 brothers and 3 sisters. — Morder (talk) 23:00, February 10, 2011 (UTC) ::Could be. In any case, the "three sisters" bit had been added by an anonymous a good while ago, and I've now removed it. I also added the "Invasive Procedures" reference along the way. Seems as if talk pages do work, after all. -- Cid Highwind 23:38, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Speculation about rank in bg section? While I find the section on O'Brien's rank problem very interesting (I enjoyed reading it), doesn't the text after "possible explanations for O'Brien's various insignia and titles" present a contradiction in terms of the MA policy on no speculation? Is it not our job to merely present the facts, not try to explain them? --| TrekFan Open a channel 22:25, March 25, 2011 (UTC) :I think that the first two comments are just speculation- but the other three are based on other information given in Trek and not just random speculation, especially the Ronald D. Moore comment. We're definitely straddling the line between speculation and facts, though.--31dot 22:43, March 25, 2011 (UTC) Yeah, I agree. The RDM comment is fine. The rest of it does kinda read like speculation to me, though. Particularly lines such as "O'Brien may have held a field commission", "it might be a type of 'honary insigna'" and "it stands to reason that he." --| TrekFan Open a channel 22:52, March 25, 2011 (UTC) ::From the canon policy: "Explanations of the conflict (for example, suggestions for reconciliation) and the reason for the selection of one resource over another can appear in a manner that is set off from the main text of the article (for example, in a background note or on the discussion page)." - 22:54, March 25, 2011 (UTC) :Well, upon further consideration, the first comment is based on Riker's "Lieutenant" usage. But I'm having a hard time seeing how the second isn't just speculation: "Starfleet non-commissioned officer insignia might be identical to officer insignia..". I'm not seeing what backs that up.--31dot 23:15, March 25, 2011 (UTC) ::The second statement is based on the idea that O'Brien was never a commissioned officer, but just held brevet ranks at certain posts. This is supported by Sergey Rozhenko recognizing O'Brien as a non-com while wearing what should be a commissioned officers insignia, as well as there being no mention of some massive demotion somewhere in the middle of TNG. This would also explain why he was a "lieutenant" as a transporter chief and held a tactical officers post during the Federation-Cardassian Wars. ::As for the statement in question, only the first part is backed up by what I mentioned, so "Starfleet non-commissioned officer insignia might be identical to officer insignia, with the number of pips worn by an NCO indicating level of seniority." should stay while the rest is dropped as pure speculation, since he was wearing two pips when addressed as a "Chief Petty Officer", not one. - 01:15, March 26, 2011 (UTC) :That works for me. :) Support removing the portion you mentioned. --31dot 02:05, March 26, 2011 (UTC) :Relating to this, removed the following statement as speculation not derived from canon, as far as I can tell. *Also another theory is that Miles O'Brien was a Lieutenant while on-board the Enterprise D, but the assignment on DS9 required him to take a drop in rank due to a limitation set (by Bajor) on how many officers could serve aboard the Bajoran station. Possibly he also kept his privlages of his prior rank to compensate for the transfer from Officer to NCO. Considering when he was offered the teaching position at Starfleet Acadamy, he mentioned he would recieve the rank of Lt. Commander, which would suggest that at one point he had to have been an officer since the chances of a promotion from NCO to a high ranking officer is unlikley.--31dot 02:21, April 6, 2011 (UTC) Demotion? There is no escape from the fact that, in keeping with the "O'Brien must suffer" theme, he was busted from Lieutenant, J.G. to Chief Petty Officer, for some kind of misconduct. You don't serve as an officer in Starfleet without having graduated from the Academy. O'Brien obviously did. He even when back there to teach. 08:07, May 13, 2011 (UTC) :It's speculation to say that he was busted down in rank without someone in canon saying so. We don't know what happened, which is why your comments were removed. He also could have taken classes at the Academy without attending the Academy(maybe basic training takes place there)--31dot 08:50, May 13, 2011 (UTC) The only possible (though unlikely) explanation I can find for the time O'Brian wore two pips and was being referred to as a LT is that he had been appointed as an Acting LT by Captain Picard (or by an Admiral, or by Starfleet Command) for some reason, later reverting back to his enlisted rank. I have no idea what that reason might have been, except the unlikely scenario of him needing to hold that rank in order to outrank an Ensign or LTJG for some reason. As for him being at Stafleet Academy; You don't have to be a commissioned officer to serve as an instructor to Cadets. You just need to hold the necessary academic degree(s), have the appropriate technical skills, and have enough experience to do the job. While it is possible that O'Brian did take some training at Starfleeet Academy at some point, or even that Basic Training happens there, that's that's not a prerequisite for serving at the Academy as an instructor. What's more, if a commissioned officer did anything that would result in him being demoted, he would almost certainly be demoted without losing his status as a commissioned officer; If Starfleet follows modern military tradition (and they seem to), then the worst demotion one could normally suffer is to be demoted to the rank of Ensign. A Commanding Officer, no matter his rank, does not normally have the authority to order that any commissioned officer be striped of his commission and cease to be a commissioned officer (except in extraordinary circumstances, like perhaps what happened to the USS Voyager and Captain Janeway). Only the Commander-In-Chief or a Court Marshal has the power to strip a commissioned officer of his commission, but even they cannot order a commissioned officer demoted to an enlisted rank, just to a lesser commissioned rank. While it is technically possible that O'Brian did become a commissioned officer, was court-marshaled, defrocked, expelled, and then later rejoined Starfleet by enlisting, it's nearly impossible that he'd then be able to get a promotion to the rank of Chief Petty Officer afterwords, for several reasons: Anyone who did something warranting the forcible loss of his commission would be very likely be rejected from rejoining the service (even as a lowly Crewman) on the grounds that holding a criminal record makes one unfit for service. What's more, even if some high-ranking Admiral somehow managed to get the defrocked officer back into active service, the disgraced former officer would almost certainly never be trusted with any sort of command authority ever again, and yet O'Brian definitely was. What's more, if someone did get court-marshaled, loose his commission, and then later somehow manage to enlist, it's almost impossible he'd ever be promoted at all and would forever be stuck at the lowly rank of Crewman Third Class. 11:18, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Field commision comment *During some points of The Next Generation, O'Brien may have held a field commission as an officer, which would explain why Riker once called him a Lieutenant. His continuous wearing of two pips (which is the standard insignia of a Lieutenant) might be a type of "honorary insignia" even though he was later clearly referred to as a Chief Petty Officer. An anon user has attempted to remove the above statement, with the edit summary "Riker's statement is simply due to the fact that they hadn't settled on O'Brien's backstory at that point. Like it or not retconning was involved, and field promotions do not simply go away" and "Removed a bit of incorrect speculation, if Miles had received a field promotion he would be entitled to the rank, it would not revert to enlisted rank". Those statements assume the Star Trek universe is the same as ours- perhaps Starfleet has different rules about that. However, I propose simply removing the second sentence of this comment and leaving the first as a compromise, since the second part is speculation on top of other speculation. But I don't think it needs to be removed outright, given Riker's clear comment.--31dot 01:11, July 10, 2011 (UTC) Tactical Officer 2 The page says that O'brien was a "senior department head" on the Rutledge. That's not in the episode. In "The Wounded" Maxwell describes O'brien as "the best tactical officer I ever had" or something similar. All that means is that O'brien manned the tactical station on a regular basis and that he was very good at it, not that he was a department head or a commissioned officer. Anyone who fills in at Conn or Ops would be called the Conn Officer or Ops Officer, wouldn't they? "Officer" is used vaguely in TNG anyway, to refer to anyone holding a certain position, like "Security Officer". Either way, "senior department head" sounds like speculation.--Pooneil 16:55, December 26, 2011 (UTC) :Not saying I agree or not, but I think the reasoning for "senior department head" comes from the fact that tactical officers are usually depicted as being head of security, a senior staff position.--31dot 20:23, December 26, 2011 (UTC)